In my opinion, being bothered by hearing a conversation in a foreign language is being conflated with xenophobia, or a more general reluctance to engage with foreigners. The suspicion of foreign tongues is, in this country, tied intimately to the mass immigration of the past three decades, which has been forced on us without our consent. It's tied to a sense of being alienated in our own country, and shouldn't be linked to a more general lack of interest in, or suspicion of, foreign cultures and languages.
On the subject of language instruction, it has always been poor in our schools. Boring text books and cassette tapes of conversations that bear no relation to the sort of speech you're likely to use on holiday or in business meetings. The Web has changed much for those of us looking to learn a foreign language in adulthood. No more stilted conversation tapes; now we can search for live news in foreign languages, podcasts and written articles, too. And on topics that are of interest to us. That's key. There is a certain amount of slog in learning a foreign tongue, and it's made much easier when we can tailor the content to our own interests. If schools want more pupils to take an interest in foreign language study, perhaps they should drop the regimented learning of the past and try to guide pupils towards foreign language content in which they actually have an interest.
When I lived in the Netherlands some years back, I was surprised at just how fluent in English everyone was: young and old alike. One thing that was not responsible for this wonder was the education system or the materials used in teaching. I know this because my children were in Dutch schools and I had the chance to see the materials they used, and my kids experienced learning French and German using the same methods.
Those methods were as old-fashioned and painful as I recall my own French lessons were in the 1960s: grammar tables and lists of vocabulary to learn overnight. I recall my poor daughter coming home one night with a list of some fifty German words which she had to learn for a test the following day.
I puzzled over this until a Dutch colleague explained the matter to me very simply. He said, in perfect English, words to the effect of, "We are a small country, no one wants to learn Dutch. So if we are to be successful (ie rich) we must learn the languages of those with whom we do business."
There it is. The Dutch and others learn English and other languages because it is a route to prosperity, and over time, it becomes a cultural norm to do so. In the UK, and worse still in America, the norm is the exact opposite. There's no such incentive when there really ought to be. As to cultural norms, we have a reputation around the world for expecting others to understand English: I can assure you it does not make us popular.
I'd say that it's easier for foreigners to learn English because it's a relatively simple language and they're surrounded by parts of it in advertising, the Web and so on. They learn by osmosis. Whereas, to learn Portuguese and Italian, I actively had to seek out content in those languages. It required - and still requires - real effort.
As to our reputation abroad, I've grown tired of the simplistic assumptions of others when it comes to our language abilities. The ones who learn foreign languages go un-noticed and uncredited. The ones who only speak English - LOUDLY - tend to make a greater impression.
I will say, though, that it's a little different for foreigners and second language learning. I'm English. If I go to Italy and speak Italian, I get credit. If I go to France and speak Italian, I get no credit. If I speak English, I'm an ignorant Englishman. The foreigner who learns English will always be considered well educated and intelligent wherever he uses it. Wherever I use English abroad, I'm just an ignorant oaf.
"The European Commission’s Flash Barometer Report found that in April 2018, 32% of UK 15-30 year olds felt confident reading and writing in two or more languages, compared to 79% in France, 91% in Germany, and 80% on average across EU member states (p.42). There have been regular calls from industry and educational bodies for the levels of attainment to be raised."
No doubt fairly accurate. Although, I bet that, for Europeans, their second language will almost always be English, which is useful for them across the world for business and tourism. But for we British, learning French only gets us anywhere in France and its colonies, former and current. If we go to South America, we have to learn Spanish (or Portuguese for Brasil). If we go to China, we must learn Mandarin. Non-native speakers of English will always get credit for speaking English as a second language. We only get limited credit for learning a second, if you see what I mean.
When I lived in Beijing in the heady, and surprisingly decadent, days of Hu Jintao, I was always frustrated that my Chinese though good enough for restaurants, markets and general carousing, was not good enough to have conversations with taxi drivers. Like taxi drivers everywhere you got to hear both juicy gossip and the true feelings of the people about the government. I'm sure the new Great Helmsman soon put a stop to that, though.
When I started reading the Jimmy Lai piece I was a bit confused to find a CCP shill lauding a heroic pro-democracy icon. But then I got to the concluding paragraph and it all made sense. Sure, Cindy, let’s trade the UK’s security to bring back Jimmy Lai.
Charming! I guess Mark Clifford, who runs a campaign group for Lai's release and is unable to go to Hong Kong himself, is also a CCP shill by that definition, seeing as I am quoting his suggestion
Mark is a great guy but he is also an American who has no dilemma in suggesting the UK allow a massive new MSS station to be outfitted in the former Royal Mint. Or does it not bother you that the embassy refuses to explain the redacted parts of its redevelopment plan for rhe site? Jimmy is my hero too but it would be idiocy to trade his remaining years in a HK cell for something that would endanger the lives of people he cares about. I’m pretty sure if I were to ask him what he prefers he would laugh me out of the room.
Cindy: speaking of “indie” ventures in rural China, you might enjoy this:
https://chinaheritage.net/journal/the-strange-tales-of-aladdin-dogballs/
In my opinion, being bothered by hearing a conversation in a foreign language is being conflated with xenophobia, or a more general reluctance to engage with foreigners. The suspicion of foreign tongues is, in this country, tied intimately to the mass immigration of the past three decades, which has been forced on us without our consent. It's tied to a sense of being alienated in our own country, and shouldn't be linked to a more general lack of interest in, or suspicion of, foreign cultures and languages.
On the subject of language instruction, it has always been poor in our schools. Boring text books and cassette tapes of conversations that bear no relation to the sort of speech you're likely to use on holiday or in business meetings. The Web has changed much for those of us looking to learn a foreign language in adulthood. No more stilted conversation tapes; now we can search for live news in foreign languages, podcasts and written articles, too. And on topics that are of interest to us. That's key. There is a certain amount of slog in learning a foreign tongue, and it's made much easier when we can tailor the content to our own interests. If schools want more pupils to take an interest in foreign language study, perhaps they should drop the regimented learning of the past and try to guide pupils towards foreign language content in which they actually have an interest.
When I lived in the Netherlands some years back, I was surprised at just how fluent in English everyone was: young and old alike. One thing that was not responsible for this wonder was the education system or the materials used in teaching. I know this because my children were in Dutch schools and I had the chance to see the materials they used, and my kids experienced learning French and German using the same methods.
Those methods were as old-fashioned and painful as I recall my own French lessons were in the 1960s: grammar tables and lists of vocabulary to learn overnight. I recall my poor daughter coming home one night with a list of some fifty German words which she had to learn for a test the following day.
I puzzled over this until a Dutch colleague explained the matter to me very simply. He said, in perfect English, words to the effect of, "We are a small country, no one wants to learn Dutch. So if we are to be successful (ie rich) we must learn the languages of those with whom we do business."
There it is. The Dutch and others learn English and other languages because it is a route to prosperity, and over time, it becomes a cultural norm to do so. In the UK, and worse still in America, the norm is the exact opposite. There's no such incentive when there really ought to be. As to cultural norms, we have a reputation around the world for expecting others to understand English: I can assure you it does not make us popular.
I'd say that it's easier for foreigners to learn English because it's a relatively simple language and they're surrounded by parts of it in advertising, the Web and so on. They learn by osmosis. Whereas, to learn Portuguese and Italian, I actively had to seek out content in those languages. It required - and still requires - real effort.
As to our reputation abroad, I've grown tired of the simplistic assumptions of others when it comes to our language abilities. The ones who learn foreign languages go un-noticed and uncredited. The ones who only speak English - LOUDLY - tend to make a greater impression.
I will say, though, that it's a little different for foreigners and second language learning. I'm English. If I go to Italy and speak Italian, I get credit. If I go to France and speak Italian, I get no credit. If I speak English, I'm an ignorant Englishman. The foreigner who learns English will always be considered well educated and intelligent wherever he uses it. Wherever I use English abroad, I'm just an ignorant oaf.
"The European Commission’s Flash Barometer Report found that in April 2018, 32% of UK 15-30 year olds felt confident reading and writing in two or more languages, compared to 79% in France, 91% in Germany, and 80% on average across EU member states (p.42). There have been regular calls from industry and educational bodies for the levels of attainment to be raised."
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7388/
No doubt fairly accurate. Although, I bet that, for Europeans, their second language will almost always be English, which is useful for them across the world for business and tourism. But for we British, learning French only gets us anywhere in France and its colonies, former and current. If we go to South America, we have to learn Spanish (or Portuguese for Brasil). If we go to China, we must learn Mandarin. Non-native speakers of English will always get credit for speaking English as a second language. We only get limited credit for learning a second, if you see what I mean.
When I lived in Beijing in the heady, and surprisingly decadent, days of Hu Jintao, I was always frustrated that my Chinese though good enough for restaurants, markets and general carousing, was not good enough to have conversations with taxi drivers. Like taxi drivers everywhere you got to hear both juicy gossip and the true feelings of the people about the government. I'm sure the new Great Helmsman soon put a stop to that, though.
When I started reading the Jimmy Lai piece I was a bit confused to find a CCP shill lauding a heroic pro-democracy icon. But then I got to the concluding paragraph and it all made sense. Sure, Cindy, let’s trade the UK’s security to bring back Jimmy Lai.
Charming! I guess Mark Clifford, who runs a campaign group for Lai's release and is unable to go to Hong Kong himself, is also a CCP shill by that definition, seeing as I am quoting his suggestion
Mark is a great guy but he is also an American who has no dilemma in suggesting the UK allow a massive new MSS station to be outfitted in the former Royal Mint. Or does it not bother you that the embassy refuses to explain the redacted parts of its redevelopment plan for rhe site? Jimmy is my hero too but it would be idiocy to trade his remaining years in a HK cell for something that would endanger the lives of people he cares about. I’m pretty sure if I were to ask him what he prefers he would laugh me out of the room.
Fair enough that's your take. What's not fair is calling those you disagree with 'CCP shills'. Lazy, and frankly, rude.